My tip is to use "drones". Single bass notes that can be generated with a keyboard or PC. For instance, you create a low concert Bb (bass clef) drone and just let that note play. Then you slowly play a C scale on your trumpet - recognizing the effects of each note compared to the drone. After a short while, your ear/brain guides you to the most favorable relationships. Then you create a low F drone and play the same C scale - learning to savor each relationship. Then you follow up with Eb, C, D and others! After a while (a month or so) a B natural drone with a C scale on the trumpet becomes enjoyable (to you).
Ear training is developing habits. It is best to slowly develop habits. That way there is no artificial "pressure" mentally or mechanically!
Best posts made by ROWUK
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RE: Ear training tips and tricks?
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RE: PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!
@Kehaulani said in PLEASE KEEP CIVIL!:
This is almost Zen like. Looking at the finger pointing at the moon instead of looking at the moon, itself.
We seem to spend an awful amount of time talking about how we should talk about things trumpet/musical rather than talking about trumpet/music itself.
I certainly agee Kehaulani. The art of communication (lets say between a teacher and student) is vital in finding common ground to lead the student to better awareness on how to build better habits. With Corona, we see increased attempts to give lessons on line. I really question how effective this can be when I am not in the same room with the student.
Just imagine a student asking how to produce vibrato - in a 1 on 1 lesson, in a lesson with 6 teachers each with a different opinion, in trumpet forum.
The single teacher in a private lesson would (hopefully) demonstrate, explain the context, history of the different types - as well as showing that certain music does not need it at all.
The group of qualified teachers “compete”. The lead trumpeter has his thing, the symphonic player another, the teacher without a lot of practical experience yet another - even although all of those teachers have a valid opinion, what does the student understand?
Advice in a forum is a two edged sword as advice appears often with no regard to what the student even can understand or the qualifications. When the posters with advice disagree, it can get emotional - especially with “snipers”, “lack of psychologically sound moderation”, frustration, differing levels of qualification, class clown. It is a question if everyone posts thoughtfully, if they post to get their post count higher, if they need the forum as a vent for personal issues. I see on most posts that the original posters intention is lost at the latest by 4 or 5 “answers”.Let us take another instance: I had an accident last year and lost some teeth. I now have full lower dentures - but never openly asked for advice here. Why is that? To be honest - for the reason that some liked my posting at TrumpetMaster - I asked questions first to get to the root of the issue instead of just vomiting an answer immediately. Are there any members that have a process for comparing dental creme including how long it lasts, resistance to coffee breaks, strength of the bond vs time, research on Articulation against plastic instead of teeth, I could think of many more issues to compare. I am sure that from the first 10 posts 6 would frustrate me. That certainly would influence my ability to keep my “civility” at the lowest common denominator. Maybe I have the wrong expectations. When I go to a doctor with a pain, I am not looking for a pill or a couple of days off. If the pain is acute, perhaps treatment to gain time until the proper diagnosis is possible.
The discussion here in this thread is exemplary of something far different. No one asked why escalation occured - “Keep it Civil” is just a bandaid - a lame attempt to keep an infection from spreading. I would insist that a band aid on top of a festering wound is not the best solution - although for a while, out of sight is out of mind. We may need some time until a diagnosis is possible, but I do not see the questions even being asked.
Believe me, the loss of TrumpetMaster was a good and bad thing. For me, it means a lot less time invested (which is good for many other things). Even although many of the same members moved here, the “depth” and “color” are the issues that I see as needing the most attention.
We could start with what a member has to tolerate instead of what ball and chain membership applies.
Example:
My definition of “ignorant” is not an insult, rather a description of someone that chooses to IGNORE the truth. If I call someone IGNORANT, it is a straight to the core issue description of lack of base to communicate. I am sure that me calling someone ignorant here would be considered “not civil”. However - when I do use the label ignorant, the discussion generally goes immediately where I want it to - addressing the problem (ignorance) instead of continuing the drivel.Keeping it civil is a result, not a rule in my world. In college, there were ways to challenge a professor and ways to get thrown out of class. They were based on procedure, respect and content.
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RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?
I remember reading about Schilke trying out lead, glass and other stuff for bell material. I remember the quotes about overtones. My own tests have shown a lot of this to be myths. As fine as the Schilke trumpets are, I never understood the need for Renolds „exaggerations“ (not just with the bell myths). I have played and measured plastic, wood, carbon fiber, pure silver, bronze, brass, copper, concrete and glass. The overtones on ALL OF THEM were the exact same frequencies, just varying in amplitude a bit. The shape played the biggest role in the tone. The biggest challenge with the instrument is how we hear ourselves. The thickness and temper of the bell as well as the bracing control what we hear and how our ears and brain react. The harder it is to hear ourselves, the more we think that we need more air.
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RE: Olds Recording 1951 era plays flat.
The safest place to cut a trumpet is where the bell enters the valve block. Cutting it at the tuning slide can make for some wacky intonation.
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RE: Does a large bore horn take more air?
@Kehaulani said in Does a large bore horn take more air?:
So I'm a little confused.
Could we summarize, then, in layman's terms, that the amount of air required doesn't necessarily depend upon what the bore size is but, rather, upon the collective design of the horn which includes a myriad of factors?
In other words, do some horns take "more air", horn-by-horn, depending on how it's constructed rather than on bore size alone?
Exactly this - horn by horn, depending on how it is constructed, how we hear ourselves, the efficiency of the entire body/mind/mouthpiece/trumpet/playing environment system. Even the term "amount of air" is not correct as our bodies have no measure of this except running out before a phrase is finished. We can believe that the horn is a loose blow indoors, we take it out to an open lake and the same system is like blowing into a brick wall!
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RE: How do you feel about vibrato?
I feel that the consummate trumpeter needs it all. They need to be able to play with and without it, they need hand, jaw and gut vibrato. Above all, they need the musical intelligence to know the difference.
Someone noticing "too much vibrato" means that the player does not understand their audience!
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RE: The Serpent
My personal opinion is that we have lost NOTHING. The trumpet has been evolving/transforming about every 50 years and that the issue is more about what the contemporary view of what is acceptable. The end of the baroque era brought the requirements of chromatics that the natural trumpet could not fulfill. An additional handicap was classical modulation of the key signature that ruled out "mean tone" instruments. Initial attempts to get the trumpet chromatic sounded HORRIBLE, that resulted in it losing its "solo instrument" position in the orchestra and it wasn't until the late 1800s until further developments enabled the trumpeter to recapture melodic superiority. With the advent of recording technology, the requirement of security drove the creation of shorter instruments (in Bb, C, D and Eb). In Germany around 1900 the Bb trumpet common today was called the "high Bb" trumpet and the orchestral players using the deep F trumpets commented on the thin sound and lack of color of those Bb instruments. They lost the battle.
Rediscovery of Bach in the 1920s and 1930s drove development of smaller bore high D, Eb, F and G trumpets. Jazz drove additional changes to the Bb as did raising concert pitch to A=440. Charles Mager bringing french C trumpets to Boston was an additional change. After the second world war, the volume war started. Symphony orchestras (especially the brass) got larger bore instruments to get a "darker" sound that fitted in the orchestral fabric better. Unfortunately, that development increased the loudness, driving orchestral pitch up to the current A=442/443 to make the woodwinds brighter to compete. The string sections got strings that were also much louder.
Now, to get back to my original premise: trumpeters never had any need to ignore history or lose certain playing techniques. This was and still is their own choice. I listen to recent symphonic brass recordings of Gabrielli and wonder why nothing has improved since the 1960s when Philadelphia, Cleveland and Chicago created their legendary recordings. The reason is choice and ignorance. Ed Tarr and many others have made historical performance practice popular and accessible. Choosing to ignore what has been learned is my definition of ignorant. There is NO REASON FOR A MODERN PLAYER TO NOT ENCOMPASS THE ORIGINAL INTENT OF COMPOSERS FROM ANY ERA. Everything is freely available in our information age. I do not need a cornetto to play Gabrielli or a natural trumpet to play Bach. I do need to understand performance practice, phrasing, articulation and blend to serve the original intent however. It is there for the taking as long as we are not too proud to bend over and pick it up!
We can learn a lot from these pioneers. -
RE: Thoughts about mouthpiece placement
In my world, we are creatures of habit. I am convinced that the „where“ is secondary, what we need is „stable“. This gives us a reliable target for development.
Recently, I have been spending a lot of time on the natural trumpet. The mouthpiece there is huge(19.5mm) and the proportion of upper to lower lip far different than with my „modern“ trumpets. This seems to be insignificant for playing. We just need a very stable base in everything that we do.
Generally, embouchure questions only come up when something is not working. There seems to be the blind assumption that we change one thing and are cured. This has NEVER worked. In my teaching, body use and breathing come first, then a relaxed exhale into the note. We build stability over time by strengthening the foundation and not moving too fast to get an octave more in 4 weeks before an audition. The attitude about preparation is the biggest reason that we get into trouble. We need to play things out of our scope because we did not improve the scope when we should have.
Generally, a good program with lipslurs can improve the embouchure by evolution instead of cold turkey revolution.
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RE: Difference between trumpet and cornet
In my world, the difference between a trumpet and cornet are 99% inside the head of the player. Cornet players have a more "intimate" approach. Great cornets allow you to play the 16 repeats that Clarke writes into his technical studies...
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RE: Trumpet 3rd valve sharping
Mark, as you may have noticed, any particular fingering can produce multiple notes. That is why 3 valves on the trumpet (with 9 possible combinations) can produce 30 to 40 different notes.
Just taking the open trumpet (no valves pressed) we can play a pedal C (one wavelength in the horn), low C (2 wavelengths), G (3 wavelengths), 3rd space c(4 wavelengths), 4th space e (5 wavelengths), top of staff g (6 wavelengths), high Bb (7 wavelengths) and high c (8 wavelengths).What is happening to you is that you are playing a „G“ (3 wavelengths) and because your embouchure is staying tense, the note does not go down, rather jumps to the Bb which is the next note possible with the first valve.
Open horn: Pedal C, C, G, c, e, g, Bb, high c
2nd valve: Pedal B, B, F#, b, d#, f#, a, high b
1st valve: Pedal Bb, Bb, F, Bb, d, f, Ab, high Bb
1+2 valve: Pedal A, A, E, a, c#, e, g, high a
2+3 valve: Pedal Ab, Ab, Eb, Ab, c, Eb, high Ab
1+3 valve: Pedal G, G, D, g, b, d, top of staff g
1+2+3 valve: Pedal F#, F#, C#, F#, a#, c#, e, top of staff f#.Any of the good trumpet method books have tables where they show this list. It is one of the basics of learning a brass instrument. As our lips are the motor „generating“ the sound, we must invest on controlling tension of the embouchure to produce the desired tones at will. A six pack in our face is the worst approach. We must think more like surgeons - fine motor activity. Many repetitions are required (thousands) until we perfect a certain aspect.
Relax your embouchure and you will get the F instead of the Bb.
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RE: Good trumpet upgrades?
My advice would be to FORGET VINTAGE TRUMPETS at your stage of development. Generally, we need a primary instrument that blends well, is in tune and has an easy blow. Vintage trumpets mostly sound different, might not even be optimally in tune (many were built for a lower pitch than common for today) and could even be an issue for getting into ensembles. In addition, old trumpets are exactly that - old and unless they have been fully restored, you may have mechanical issues.
You will do yourself a great favor by saving up and getting one of the more "standard" models: Yamaha 6xxx, B&S Challenger, Jupiter, Bach 180, Getzen 900. You will be rewarded with an instrument that will not be in the way later in your "career". The problem is that players get passed over because of their instruments not "blending" - without anyone telling them. I have a Bach C trumpet for ensembles that "prefer" that standard sound - even although it is not my favorite instrument. I would rather keep the gig instead of "proving a point" where only I lose.
That being said, once you have a solid every day "go to" instrument, additional horns can increase the available colors. If you are into jazz, there is more room for "individuality" after you have found your own voice
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RE: Mouthpiece issue
@barliman2001 Thank you Elmar!
In my world, range is not really a function of mouthpiece or embouchure, it is "mostly" the synergy between the blow and lip tension. I can play my highest notes when I am most relaxed. When I increase embouchure tension, I have to "blow harder" and that makes life more "difficult".
My "secret" for range is slowing down. Longtones with minimal (not zero) lip or mouthpiece pressure. Once the juices are flowing, then lots of EASY lipslurs. I use the Earl Irons Lip Flexibilities book.
Before we get to mechanics, we have to get our breathing under control. I use a visualisation called "the circle of breath". Envision a large circle. From 6:00 to 12:00 is inhale, from 12:00 to 6:00 is exhale. Please note that the transition from inhale to exhale is perfectly smooth - just like the circle. That means that your inhale is timed to be finished exactly at 12:00 and that you have not gone into "compression" - where you need to release tension to even exhale. At 6:00 the opposite happens.
I am talking about practice habits here to "organize" breathing/body use and playing. When performing, we can not always maintain "best practices" as the RESULTS justify the means. Our daily practice is to refine the bodies part of playing and generally less tension is more range, articulation, tone and endurance.
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RE: Tough Decision to make
@administrator
My take on this is perhaps a bit unconventional, but I would insist that between those two horns, it does not matter. Regardless of which on you pick, there will always be something in the back of your mind questioning that choice.
That being said, I do not believe in a lot of this synergy blah. I do not believe that most musicians have a "well formed concept" that would guide them only to specific hardware (a claim that I make as a long time Monette trumpet owner). The musician that concentrates on the music, discovers whatever horn that they have in their hands in a special way. I do use my Monette C trumpet more than any other horn BUT I am not musically "limited" in the orchestra when I play my Selmer, Bach or any other horn. That does not mean that the Monette is not special to me, it only means that when I play, I have no dependencies, no questions in the back of my mind concerning hardware.So, based on what you have posted, the Blackburn has appealed to you for many more years and the Yamaha discovery is new and has no specific "reasons" except hearsay. If you were my student, I would say play before you pay and would drive with you to wherever to make an informed decision with an extra set of ears that you could trust.
One thing is clear to me, I have many players that I admire and they cover just about every horn one could imagine. That means that the difference is them, not the hardware.
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RE: Attracting members who are interested in things musical/trumpet
This is not an opportunity for me to rant, but here would be a shortlist of things that would make things more enjoyable in my opinion:
- Threads that stay on topic - splitting threads when they get off topic.
- an end to the "class clown" posts in many threads. I do not get the humor.
- Method/process instead of opinion - thinking and posting about how we got to a decision is more important to me than throwing up on the music stand!
- The ability to criticize without starting a war. I really believe in challenging beliefs (even my own).
- I often get the feeling that certain members should be asking questions instead of making statements. It is hard to put that in print without dropping a bomb.
I would like to see some true "in thread tutorship". Maybe even restricted to 2 people! That requires a willing, thoughtful student and a teacher with their heart in the right place. When someone comes here to visit and 10 people pile on (many perhaps not even qualified), it is overwhelming. At TrumpetMaster, several of us did this by PM to keep the Riff-Raff out.
Serious pimping of trumpets (not eye candy) is something that we occasionally get to see - but without objective reviews (except for Ivan).
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RE: Who did it better??
Very, very polished. Technically and musically more than what I was used to hearing from the original band. BUT and this is a VERY big but: the original band created the venue, charts, market. Let us see how much original new material will be composed...
I don't think that Lee Loughnane could have played these trumpet parts. I have a slight preference for Peter Ceteras voice and Terry Kaths guitar.
I was not aware of this band - thanks for the link!
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RE: Not really a "mouthpiece safari" but the need for a "saving grace" type of mouthpiece...
This is a thread where it is very easy to be "unkind"...
The fact that you "absolutely CANNOT play 1st chair, screaming high, Maynard Ferguson, Bill Chase, style of music" puts you in the same boat with just about everyone else here. Even if there were a mouthpiece that "aided" the high register, there are many compelling reasons not to share that "secret". Maybe so much - your Bach 3C and Curry 3M CAN cut it...
Endurance is not a function of a 3C or Curry equivalent. It is the result of us reducing the amount of tension necessary to play. That is accomplished with superior breathing and body use techniques as well as a LOT of very soft playing to train lower embouchure tension.
The width of the mouthpiece is not indicative of a specific range or endurance and there is most certainly a "cost of business" when we start switching around.
The Bach 3C is as close to standard magic as it gets. It has a slightly sharp inner rim to get the sound started more easily. It is average in size in relation to rim, cup and backbore. For commercial type playing, it is certainly not a bad choice. If you are having a rough time with it, I would not expect another mouthpiece to perform "better". I would focus more on the basics of sound production and get those habits in line with your dental situation. I am facing a dental situation myself and look forward to practicing what I have preached - even to students with braces.
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RE: Tone Centering for Trumpet (Centering & Tuning) Part III
Playing on the resonant center is at least the most efficient way to play. The problem is that we trumpeters do not play „well tempered“! An E in a C Major, A Major or F#7 all are different frequencies. That means that we are always adjusting - some. We do not have regulation for the second valve, so have to accept some non centered playing. Many trumpets also have intonation issues.
Fortunately, fine trumpets do not have knife edge slots so we can manage and still get great tone. Monette talks a lot about pitch center and how we muscle our bodies to correct design faults and other bad habits. I have done a lot of the things that he recommends and can say that the journey involves more than the resonant center of the instrument. We have to reduce body tension in a serious way to really benefit from the resonant center.
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RE: Not really a "mouthpiece safari" but the need for a "saving grace" type of mouthpiece...
@Kehaulani said in Not really a "mouthpiece safari" but the need for a "saving grace" type of mouthpiece...:
rowuk tell me if I'm off track. I would just add these observations.
Shallower cups (not diameters), can emphasise the upper partials and de-emphasise the lower ones, aiding the sound to being more easily heard if playing lead or in an electric combo. This is an acoustic phenomenon, not a range building one.
Actually the cup is an acoustic filter between the lips and the resonance of the instrument. A deep cup filters the upper harmonics creating a darker sound. That being said, a shallow cup has more "compression" creating a "stiffer" cushion against our lips. This in fact could aid properly trained chops in the upper register. The idea is equilibrium - our blow and the air cushion of the cup create a fluid instance where the lips can freely open and close. IF our embouchure is not developed enough, we apply armstrong and all bets are off about attaining equilibrium. You see, when our blow is stronger than the backpressure of the cup air cushion, our lips protrude more deeply in the cup, changing the geometry of the embouchure and possibly even bottoming out. With slighly deeper "standard" mouthpieces, this danger hardly exists.
Deep cups, for many, are just harder to sustain playing high notes over a long period of time, and generally enhance the roundness or depth of the tone, pushing out the lower partials at the trade-off of the upper ones.
Only when we are leveraging our face muscles instead of letting the horn do the work!
And some mouthpieces just enhance a certain sound preference.
This is a HUGE issue. As I have often posted, how we hear ourselves determines what we believe that the trumpet is doing. Play in a nice room - get the warm fuzzies, then take that same trumpet/mouthpiece and attitude and play outdoors in an open space - endurance goes down, the amount of work seems to go up - although all that has changed is how we hear ourselves! I will maintain that most players have a VERY WARPED concept of what they like and what is good for them. That underdeveloped "opinion" limits their playing in serious ways!.
This doesn't mean that any of these factors can't be "overcome", in and of themselves. To use an analogy though, you can get from New Hampshire to California in a BMW or a Volkswagen Beetle. It just depends on how you want to travel.
***I am not sure that nature needs to be overcome. The rules of engagement are very clear - get a daily routine for maintenance (not improvement) and stick to it. This is like treating diabetes. If we regard the ceremony of injecting insulin as "overcoming" the symptoms of diabetes - we have already lost the battle. Our bodies are screaming for a different type of eating ceremony and we just apply a bandaid. In May this year, my own diabetes got worse. I got a new diabetologist and we decided on a new strategy. Inside of a month, I was able to reduce the quantity of insulin by 50%. I changed the eating ceremony - was never hungry and have been losing about 1 to 2 pounds per month. I currently have the best medium term results since 2011.
It is no different with the trumpet. There are so many "microfactors" that we need to commit to "second nature". This is why I am allergic to mouthpiece discussions and embouchure changes - not because they have no value, rather because our bodies are telling us what we need to know and we are not listening or able to hear - so we come up with "hairbrained" schemes that simply satisfy our urge to "do something" but NEVER give us the results (if we are taking notes).
The single greatest improvement for the casual player is the daily routine. Like with diabetes -> when the input is right, the output is far less invasive.***
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RE: Trumpet playing and dentures/implants
I will keep this thread alive as a personal diary. I am not "looking" for advice, criticism or praise but those that have been through this probably have some additional stuff. Maybe we can keep the content level high to make it easier in the future to find stuff?
Step one was to pull teeth, step two is repair the jaw and after that is done and solid, the final step will be implanting anchors to hold the dentures solidly in place. This could be a year of updates. I do not recommend letting anyone smash the trumpet into your face... The trumpet was repaired far more quickly!
Well, step one happened on Monday. All the teeth on my lower jaw were removed and I got "dentures". No sutures were necessary even although one wisdom tooth was impacted.
The instructions from the doc were to leave the dentures in for 24 hours (to keep the tongue out of the sockets). Robin was a good boy. Antibiotics and Novaminsulfon pain relievers kept everything manageable. Talking is a major challenge as the tongue does not know where to go. I slept sitting up - following instructions. Porridge for breakfast, soups for lunch and dinner.
Yesterday (Tuesday) was just a maintenance day, I tired quickly and there was still a bit of bleeding. Took my antibiotics and only a pain reliever before bed. Talking is still challenged. I was able to sleep laying down. Porridge with berries for breakfast, soups for lunch and dinner.
Today, Wednesday was actually pretty good. No pain relievers needed. Still get tired faster than usual. Have trouble with all of the "S" consonants needed in english and german - lots of sibillance - sounds like a really cheap stereo! Most of the wounds are closed and there was no bleeding worth mentioning - so I pulled out my C-trumpet and played 30 minutes of easy long tones and lip slurs. Even with the dentures, everything still worked. My tone had a bit of air - but always does when I take 2 days off. Still, the only food that I can eat is minced very fine so it is immediately "swallowable". I am rinsing with salt water a couple of times per day. The dentures are staying remarkably in place but are too high on the left side. Just waiting for the swelling to go down so that adjustment makes sense. Porridge for breakfast, soups for lunch and dinner. I tried cutting up some sausages for the soup, but was not successful the first time around - they were not small enough to swallow directly. A mincer solved the problem but the sausage taste was too diluted by the soup. Probably should not have tried.
The rest of the day I spent voicing some new horns for my stereo!
Got pretty close but counter tenors still sound like crap. Well, tomorrow is also a day and I'll see how my ears work.
My next dental appointment is Monday to get the dentures adjusted. After that, I go back to work. Next concert series in 3 weeks...